Transcript
John Morrell (00:04): Welcome to Democracy That Delivers, a podcast brought to you by the Center for International Private Enterprise. My name is John Morrell, the Asia Pacific Director at CIPE. And over the coming weeks, I’ll be bringing you a special podcast series: Business and Politics in Today’s Pacific Islands. The first of which is today with Mr. Sam Saili, and we’ll be talking about business and politics in Samoa—the independent state of Samoa.
Sam’s bio is available, so I won’t read the entire thing now, but Sam is the president of the Samoan Chamber of Commerce, and he’s the founder and CEO of Sky Eye Pacific, an exciting technology company startup providing innovative solutions for the Pacific. Now, Samoa has a big election coming up scheduled for late August, and we’re going to talk about that. But before we talk politics, I want to talk business. Sam, you’re a businessman, an entrepreneur, you run the country’s leading business group. So let me first ask you about the Samoan economy. The statistics look pretty good—over 5% GDP growth, limited inflation. But tell us Sam, what’s the big economic news out of Samoa that the world should know about?
Sam Saili (01:21): Hi John, thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s great to talk to everyone. In terms of our economy, yes, the statistics are looking positive. But in terms of current inflation, we are looking at increasing inflation while globally, inflation is getting lower.
There are a bit of concerns in terms of the statistics, but generally, doing business in Samoa—and in the Pacific Islands—is quite difficult due to our isolation and very small market size. So scaling is very difficult in doing business generally for Samoa. In terms of the ease of doing business scale that the World Bank does for any economy, Samoa unfortunately is at the lowest stage in terms of the ranking. So those are some of the things that we could do better.
John Morrell (02:36): Given the fact that Samoa is ranked pretty low—you mentioned the ease of doing business—there are a lot of those indicators where countries are ranked for corruption or places that are good to do business. If Samoa is ranked pretty low among countries in terms of ease of doing business, what drives that? You mentioned a couple that are obvious: geography. Samoa is small, it’s an island, you have to travel quite a distance to get there. But what other factors make Samoa a cumbersome place to do business?
Sam Saili (03:08): So the other factors are certainly the bureaucracy. There are silos in terms of registration. Different entities—government entities—are involved in a process that should be very simple. So that’s definitely an area for improvement. In terms of foreign investment, the data for Samoa is also quite bad in terms of what foreign investment we’ve been able to bring in. So that also has a long way to go. Again, the data or evidence leans mostly on bureaucracy—the red tape in trying to register or achieve certain things. So that’s a big area that we can improve on.
But there are definitely a lot of improvements being put in place, but it is quite slow.
John Morrell (04:18): Often—and Samoa is by no means the only country where this is the case—where a very active government, very active bureaucracy, encumbers people trying to make a living. They oftentimes get in the way. What is the economic record of the FAST government? How does the economic record of the current government, which is up for reelection in August, compare to previous HRPP governments? Have things become more cumbersome? Are things getting better? How would you describe the economic track record of the government for the last five years?
Sam Saili (05:03): There has been some shift in priorities between the different governments. And the track record, as your question suggests, is quite difficult to gauge because HRPP had over 40 years of track record.
John Morrell (05:24): Just to underline that, Sam—I don’t think a lot of people who observe Samoa, who work in the Pacific, know that Samoa in 2021 broke almost a half century of unbroken rule by a single party.
Sam Saili (05:42): Yes, yes. And that’s why it’s difficult to have a good gauge in terms of judging how well the economy has performed. And also there was the pandemic, and just after the pandemic, the new government came in. So it’s quite difficult to have a good judgment in terms of the track record. But overall, it has been good, as the statistics show. The economy has been improving over the last few years. So yeah, overall, it’s been good.
There has been a shift in priorities in terms of where the government invests money. And that’s where the most contrast is. The current caretaker government—the FAST government—was mostly focused on the rural areas, on investing in the rural areas and not so much in infrastructure. So that’s where the difference in terms of priorities lies between the two governments.
John Morrell (06:56): Interesting. Before we delve too deeply into the politics—and I am going to ask you about the work of the chamber and how the chamber tries to shape these issues and what the chamber’s priority issues are—but before we get into those specifics, I’m curious about a cultural aspect of Samoa: the culture of entrepreneurship. In the United States, entrepreneurship, being an entrepreneur—that term has a positive connotation. Entrepreneurs invent things, they design things, they get rich. There’s a positive connotation behind the word entrepreneur.
In a lot of countries—and we’ve documented this in several countries in the Pacific, in particular in Melanesia—being an entrepreneur doesn’t really have a positive connotation. There’s a view that you become an entrepreneur if you can’t get a good job as a lawyer or doctor—you become an entrepreneur almost out of desperation. What is the culture like in Samoa? I mean, Sam, you—Sky Eye Pacific—you’re an entrepreneur. You’ve created a tech startup doing exciting things. Is that rare in Samoa? What is the entrepreneurial culture, the entrepreneurial ecosystem like in Samoa? Are you rare, or are there more Sams out there starting businesses?
Sam Saili (08:28): It’s quite interesting that, yes, and it is true what you mentioned in terms of the Pacific—that when you say entrepreneur, it is quite different culturally between Western culture and here in the Pacific. Usually parents always kind of lean toward encouraging their children to go into safe employment. And that would be the normal doctor, lawyer, accountant. Those are the safe options, and they always go for safety first. And they actually encourage going into government or the public sector because they see that as safe employment. So it is very difficult in terms of the ecosystem when you go into being an entrepreneur.
But I think mostly it is not because of that—it’s more about those who can identify opportunities and believe in those opportunities, that they can make a difference out of those opportunities. And that’s where our company came out of—actually looking at those opportunities and believing that we can make a difference by taking on those opportunities. Because before, my brother and I were in the public sector. And unfortunately, we saw things that could be done better. And our ideas and our thoughts and our suggestions and our recommendations weren’t really taken on by those making decisions. So we decided to go on our own, do our own thing. And Sky Eye was born out of there.
And it is quite rewarding, but it also is very difficult because there’s not much of a safety net for entrepreneurs. If you fail, then there’s no backup in the small markets that we operate in.
John Morrell (10:55): What are the biggest obstacles? Just like you’ve done—start your own business, not with the idea of just subsistence, but you’re trying to create something that can grow, that can endure. A lot of ingredients go into that beyond intelligence and hard work. You need to have contract enforcement. Your property rights have to be protected. There have to be quality public services. There are ingredients that are necessary for entrepreneurship to be viable. In Samoa and your experience, what were the biggest obstacles that you faced that you thought, “You know what, if I were doing this in Australia or Japan or somewhere else, this would have been much easier. I wouldn’t have to deal with all this hassle”? What were the obstacles that you faced?
Sam Saili (11:42): Absolutely. We always kind of dream of “if only we were in a different market.” The issue is scale. When I mentioned previously, it’s very difficult to scale our operations because of the market size that we have—the amount of people that can use the products that we create. Especially when it’s technology-based, then you have to have a population that’s tech-savvy and has access to internet and access to smart devices so that they can utilize the products that we create. And also the infrastructure. I’m not sure if you know, but PayPal doesn’t work in the Pacific. So that’s one of the building blocks…
John Morrell (12:33): It doesn’t work anywhere in the Pacific, or just in some places?
Sam Saili (12:38): It doesn’t work anywhere in the Pacific. So like PayPal—that’s one of the building blocks of technology for any platform that wants to get paid. So those types of infrastructure limitations are very difficult for an entrepreneur to work with. For our company, we had to create our own version of PayPal. And we also had to create our own version of Google Maps, which are like a given for any startup. Those infrastructures are there and ready to plug in. But in the Pacific, unfortunately, that’s the reality. We don’t have that access.
So it is maybe 10 times more difficult for an entrepreneur to have a startup in the Pacific because of the scale and the infrastructure. But we have the blessing of our family—my brother and sisters. We are all involved in the company and we all have different areas of expertise, and we lean on each other to look at how we can create the ecosystem that we’re able to sustain our growth. And thankfully that worked, and we’re now in Samoa, Vanuatu, Tonga, and the Solomon Islands. Because when we create a product that fixes or solves a problem in Samoa, usually our Pacific neighbors have the same difficulties. So it’s been easy to replicate our solution in the other islands.
John Morrell (14:25): Exciting, Sam! And the fact that it’s ten times harder to succeed at this in Samoa makes your success ten times more impressive. That really is exciting, Sam. Let me ask you about the chamber. How does the chamber fit into this in terms of what your priority issue areas are? How do you try to engage with the government to make the economic environment better? Because you’ve mentioned several obstacles and business dilemmas that Samoa has—some are fixable, some less so. I don’t think the Chamber has found a way to physically move Samoa to be closer to major markets. So keeping in mind that some problems we recognize no Chamber, no matter how well-intentioned, can solve—what are the Chamber’s priority issue areas and how does the Chamber try to influence public opinion and move the needle on its issues?
Sam Saili (15:19): Yes, so being part of the chamber and becoming the current president was a conscious decision because we wanted to—we saw opportunities that we could improve the ecosystem. One area to be sustainable is that every part of the ecosystem has to be robust. And we want to work with the government in promoting and creating ecosystems so that all the players can thrive—so that all the businesses can thrive.
In terms of what I mentioned before about the bureaucracy that’s hindering the ease of doing business, that’s certainly a priority for the chamber and has been for a while—trying to streamline a lot of the processes that could be easily fixed. And that’s a priority, and we’re always knocking on the door of the different ministries as well as the ministers to try and streamline these processes to make it easier for our businesses to operate. We always stay on top of policies and legislation—that’s a major area for the chamber in trying to make sure that any policies or legislation that are introduced take the lens of the private sector to make sure that they don’t negatively affect the private sector.
And one of our other major priorities is we want to make the public—especially the government—and the public understand that the private sector is an integral part of the whole society. The private sector is providing a lot of the employment and we are part of the ecosystem. There’s a perception in the public that the private sector is only there to make money and nothing else matters—just make the money. But it’s not like that. That’s something that we want to grow—that understanding that we are part of the whole economy, of the whole society. When the private sector is healthy, we’re able to contribute, and as they say, the engine of growth is within the private sector. So we want to promote more of that perception—that we are part of the ecosystem.
John Morrell (18:00): Well, that makes a lot of sense. With the election coming up, it’s political season. Are there particular candidates or particular parties—I believe there are three main players in next month’s election—are there particular candidates or parties that are viewed as being pro-business versus other parties maybe being more pro-labor? I guess maybe even a broader question than that is: Does Samoan politics fall on the same left-right spectrum as in a lot of other countries? In the United States, you have Republicans and Democrats; in Australia, you have the Liberals who are conservative and Labor, but it’s the same sort of left-right spectrum. What are politics like in Samoa? Do Samoan politics fall on that same spectrum? And if so, who are the players who are generally regarded in terms of their political brand as being pro-business?
Sam Saili (19:01): Right. Yeah, so as I mentioned, Samoa had basically a one-party nation for almost half a century. In terms of looking at the government or the party’s policies, it wasn’t really interesting in the past elections because everyone just thought they’re just going to win again. So trying to look at what they’re saying and what policies they’re putting through hasn’t been a consideration for quite a long time.
Now, currently there are seven political parties that are going to be contesting the upcoming election. So it is very interesting now. All the parties now are very much focused now on their messages, what their policies are. And everyone now is actually looking at those policies. So it’s really—I mean, it was very good to have stability for almost half a century. And Samoa was the poster child of being politically stable in the region. But now, with this change, I think a lot more people are engaged in the election. A lot more people are now looking seriously at the policies and what that entails for them.
But going back to your question in terms of do we lean—do we have this like what you mentioned, the Republican and the Democrat—no, we don’t have that kind of theme or lens in our decision-making or how we vote. But I believe that might be something that we kind of see now, now that there is genuine competition and people or parties wanting to differentiate themselves. So we do see that now coming through where they’re now openly focused on certain areas and looking at which base they’re now trying to encourage.
So to answer your question, no, we don’t have that. But I see that now it’s going to—I think it is going to be a factor going forward, that there are going to be what you call factions where there will be clear demarcations in the parties and what their policies are. But in terms of the candidates—as you mentioned, three main players, if you can put it that way—I think the previous prime minister has been very pro-business.
John Morrell (22:16): You mean Prime Minister FAST—the most recent prime minister, you mean?
Sam Saili (22:22): No, the previous prime minister—that’s the HRPP and Tuilaepa—are quite clearly pro-business. And that doesn’t mean the current government is not. It’s just a matter of priorities. They have been more focused on the rural areas. And that’s also very good. But yeah, the previous government had a lot more track record, if I can put it that way. So that’s why I also mentioned it’s difficult to judge clearly, but yeah, I think the previous government was more pro-business, but that doesn’t mean the current government is not as well. It’s just different priorities, and their manifesto is quite pro-business as well in trying to improve the private sector.
John Morrell (23:25): One thing about Samoan politics that you can read about in the United States and elsewhere is the issue of foreign policy in Samoa—how that’s impacting Samoan politics. The narrative is that the FAST government, Prime Minister Fiamē, backed out or backed away from some BRI-funded programs. There was a large port that China was going to fund through loans that the HRPP government had pursued and agreed to. And the FAST government, Prime Minister Fiamē, backed away. Is that, first, accurate? And second, does that reflect ideology where one side tends to be—the HRPP is a bit more pro-China, whereas the FAST government has been, and if a future government wins, they’re not as pro-China? Or is the West mixing things up and we’re drawing lessons that shouldn’t be drawn?
Sam Saili (24:36): It is not that clear-cut. The HRPP government was quite invested in a new port, and that was because economically that was our biggest—one of our biggest barriers—is our port. We couldn’t get enough ships in and ships out. So that affected the economy quite a lot.
But in terms of investing in the port and who was going to build the port, that wasn’t clear-cut. They just had the plan to build a new port. Now, in terms of having the Chinese government sponsor or provide grants to build the port, that wasn’t clear-cut. They were looking at options. Definitely China was the one that came forth most prominently. So whether that is the narrative that it was going to be China, I don’t think that’s a clear-cut decision or narrative there.
But the FAST government stepping back from the port, I think that was more also due to environmental impact on the ecosystem because it is a particular area that has one of the biggest mangroves in the Polynesia region. So that was also quite heavily put forward against the port by the FAST government—that the area has major ecological benefits for the community. So it’s not really just because of who’s funding the port.
John Morrell (26:44): I mean, the data does show that China-funded, BRI-funded programs have a less than stellar environmental record. Oftentimes environmental reviews, environmental impact assessments, which are required by local law, are sort of conveniently skipped with BRI projects—by no means universally, but that is part of their reputation.
One last question I have for you, Sam, to kind of wrap up the conversation about the upcoming election: what role does foreign policy play? What role is foreign policy playing in the campaign? We see elsewhere in the Pacific—the Solomon Islands—foreign policy decisions, in particular vis-à-vis China and Taiwan, have featured prominently in political campaigns. What role does foreign policy play in the current campaign in Samoa?
Sam Saili (27:41): That’s a very good question. To be honest, it hasn’t really played a major part in our elections and in politics, because Samoa was stable—politically stable—for quite a long time. And the government was always able to, in a certain way, dictate what’s best for Samoa first. So there was not that much influence or effect in the decisions of the Samoans and the citizens on who to vote for based on foreign policy. And I think this election also is around that. It’s not really recognized so much by those that will be voting—what the foreign policy of the political parties will be putting into place.
That’s not to say that it’s not important. It’s definitely going to be more and more relevant because of the location that the Pacific is in and the different influences that are from our neighbors. So it is going to be a lot more contested and a lot more focused on going forward. But I think for this particular election, because it was also brought forward quite a year—it was supposed to be in 2026, but due to the dissolving of the parliament, they had to bring it forward—with that timeline, everything in the lead-up to the election, there wasn’t that time for people to put forward the manifesto, do the campaign, and get people to understand. Right now it’s a very compressed timeline, and so we can’t really flesh out what really is going to influence the decisions of the citizens. It’s very much a guessing game at the moment.
John Morrell (30:13): Given all that you said, Sam, what’s going to happen next month? If you could—I’m sure you have a crystal ball in your back pocket, but even if you forgot it out in your car—what is your best forecast? What’s going to happen? And how should the world interpret the results?
Sam Saili (30:34): So, now that it’s really good for the citizens to actually have that many choices, now that they can look more at what benefits them, as well as the policies. As I just mentioned, it’s very difficult to know what would be the most influential factor for people to decide. But I think it will definitely be a coalition. I think it will be a coalition. And that will also mean a lot of negotiations. How that will come about and what would be the main points that will be negotiated on—I’m not too sure at the moment, but my view is it’s probably going to be a coalition, and I think that might be the first for Samoa for—I don’t know—for a century. And that also is going to be interesting.
John Morrell (31:46): You paint a picture, Sam, of progress. You don’t paint a picture of utopia, but it is a story of progress. The fact that Samoa right now is in the midst of a contested political campaign in which voters have choices, candidates and parties are at least trying to differentiate themselves based on ideas—this is a good thing, regardless of who wins. Sometimes the process matters. And the process that you’re describing sounds like one of progress.
Sam, I thank you so much. We all thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. And to everyone listening, thank you so much for joining us on Democracy That Delivers. To learn more about CIPE’s work, either in the Pacific or anywhere in the world, visit cipe.org. That’s C-I-P-E dot O-R-G. And Sam—Mr. Sam Saili, President of the Samoan Chamber of Commerce, founder and CEO of Sky Eye Pacific—telling us about business and politics in Samoa. Sam, thank you so much for your time. I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Sam Saili (32:57): Thank you very much, John. And yes, it’s definitely an exciting time. It is a learning experience. It is, as you mentioned, a process, and it’s good that our citizens are going through this, and we can only grow and be stronger from this process.
John Morrell (33:18): We hope so anyway. Thanks so much, Sam.
Sam Saili (33:19): Thank you, John.
