Episode Description
Last year, Poland held extraordinarily consequential parliamentary elections where the conservative Law and Justice party (PiS) lost its majority for the first time since 2015. Against this backdrop, CIPE supported a new project, “The Rule of Law – Our Future” through the Institute for Private Enterprise and Democracy (IPED) based in Warsaw between July 2023 to January 2024. As part of the Free Enterprise and Democracy Network Small Grants initiative, the project educated voters about the importance of the rule of law and encouraged youth participation in the election.
In this podcast, Program Officer Tamari Dzotsenidze from CIPE Policy and Program Learning is joined by FEDN Steering Committee member and president of IPED Mieczyslaw Bak and Director of Program Strategy Anna Szczesniak in a discussion on lessons learned over the course of the project and perspectives on engaging with youth.
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Transcript
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Welcome to this week’s episode of, Democracy That Delivers, and our miniseries on this year’s Enterprise & Democracy Network Small Grants Program where we’ll be speaking with grantees engaging locally to promote the principles of free enterprise and democracy.
I’m Tamari Dzotsenidze Program Officer with CIPE’s policy and program learning unit and coordinator of the Free Enterprise & Democracy Network known as FEDN here at CIPE. FEDN was established by CIPE in 2012 to bring private sector voices into global discourse on democracy and provides a mechanism for private sector leaders and advocates of economic freedom across the world to exchange ideas and make the case for democracy and markets.
The Small Grants Program launched last year in an effort to promote understanding of how democracy and market economies enable a better way of life. Today we’ll have the pleasure of speaking with FEDN steering committee member Mieczyslaw Bak and Anna Szczesniak of the Institute of Private Enterprise and Democracy in Poland regarding their project, The Rule of Law, Our Future, which prepared media bases, youth and student organizations, for the consequential 2023 parliamentary elections in Poland through the development of articles explaining the rule of law and its impact on the well-being of citizens.
Welcome both and thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.
Anna Szczesniak:
Hello Tamari. Hello everyone.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Hello.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Can you provide us an overview of, The Rule of Law, Our Future project, and its objectives?
Anna Szczesniak:
Yes, of course. The Rule of Law, Our Future project is part of our Institute’s support for democracy, support for democratic values. Institutions implementing this project, we wanted to rise the level of knowledge about the rule of law and make young people aware of the importance of the rule of law, especially in economic development of our country and welfare of our society.
We also wanted to encourage young people to participate in a parliamentary election. Because last year, 2023, it was very important in our life year, parliamentary elections year. Within this quite short project, it lasted seven months, we provided some knowledge about rule of law importance, meaning for our economy and country and for every single citizen. And we prepared 10 articles about that and promoted it.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
And so when you say, rule of law, can you explain a little bit about what that means to you and why you chose to focus on that specifically?
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Well, during last eight years we observe abuse of the state of power and especially we observe that the institution which normally function in democracy, should assure check and balance system, are not working properly, but the state abuses its power. So we decided that it is very important to show what does it mean in practice that institution like courts, like public media, like civil service, like education, do not work properly, and it’s real threat to the functioning of the state of the rule of law.
And for us, the meaning of the rule of law is that, rights, it’s that situation when everybody is treated the same way, but nobody is put over the law. That legal rights are fulfilled in practice, that economies are functioning stable, and that is assured the good condition for economic grow. Why this is related with economy? We think that it is the state of law which assure that the proper rights are uphold, facilitating, for example, the elimination of the corruption, and business environment and contracts are working in a good way.
And the rule of law is definitely not sufficient, but the democracy is functioning. But we realize that without assuring this basic rights, that the democracy is not that healthy, the democracy. So we decided that this is the good way of showing the relation between the state of law and the economic well-being of people, especially young generation.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
No, absolutely. And you mentioned that this is especially important for the young generation. Can you share a bit about why you chose to focus specifically on youth for this project?
Anna Szczesniak:
Yes. We decided to focus on youth because they weren’t interested in voting in the past. In Poland, generally turnout, in parliamentary elections was quite low in the past. During last, previous election in 2019, general turnout was about 62%, and among young people aged between 18 and 29, was only 46%. And we believe that among these young people will be future politicians, legislators, lawyers, as well as business person and managers of different public and private companies, institutions of different various levels. And this last parliamentary election was about their future, so for us it was obvious that our target group should be young people.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
We decided that it’s very important to convince young people that the rule of law matters for their future and especially for their economic situation. Because as Anna has mentioned, young people were not voting. I wanted to assure them that their vote really matters and with their vote they can change the situation and make it more favorable for their future.
And we selected very practical examples of the situation when the rule of law matters. Like for example, we have the problems with prosecution of the young people who participated in the demonstration and they were prosecuted by judiciary system with very strong way. For example, their homes were visited by the police, they have suing cases, which lasted for very long time.
Anyway, they realized that if the rule of law is not functioning, their situation is really much worse. We also tried to select very practical examples which showed that it is important for their economic situation. But for example, well-functioning judiciary system and the assurance of the contracts is important for investment. And without investment, which was falling down in Poland during last years, they will not have good opportunities for obtaining good job or obtaining interesting work in the future.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
I think that you touched on this just now, how you ensured these materials effectively conveyed the importance to young audiences, but was there anything specifically that you did to make sure that you were reaching youth as opposed to just the general public?
Anna Szczesniak:
As Mieczyslaw mentioned, we tried to show them examples and show young people how violating the rule of law can affect entrepreneurs and citizens, and the consequences of democratic backsliding in the country, yes. And we tried to underline in our article, which we developed, how lack of rule of law can affect every single person. And try find cases of specific people, specific person, especially young people, how they experience the lack of the rule of law in our country. It was our strategy, yes.
And of course we decided to choose students’ science clubs, students’ scientific associations and research groups functioning at the universities in our country, in different places, related to different areas of law. For example, constitutional law, administration law, bank law, European capital markets law related to economy, finance, and so on, and prepared a database of these organizations, these NGOs. We gathered over 200 such groups, and every two, three weeks, emailed articles about rule of law, its importance to these groups, these NGOs.
And of course at the same time we promoted it with our web page and with the project web page which we developed. We sent it to mass media including students’ mass media and try to publish everywhere these articles, short messages, short animation to reach young people and convey them to read this. And of course, in each article, each our text, we encourage them to participate in the election because their voice matters.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Absolutely. And so then what were the outcomes of this project? Did you see success? How was turnout?
Anna Szczesniak:
Well, I think it was quite small project, I would say. But we did completely a lot of work and outcomes are quite good, I would say. Because in the end of project we conducted small survey among young people, which we tried to reach. And almost 71% of our respondents stated that our articles, which we contributed, which we distributed and published, contributed to their knowledge on law.
So I think it’s quite good result. And we prepared all something about 80 posts, animations, other short messages, texts. We identified over 80 mentions in mass media about the project and our articles. So I think it quite good result. And we were able to reach over 162,000 people thanks to our activity and over 678,000 views, where we had such number of views during project period.
So I think, I believe, I’m sure, that we have made our contribution to the success of the last parliamentary elections because we had highest turnout during last 35 years. It was over 74%, while during previous parliamentary election it was almost 62. So all people in our country were surprised, were so happy because of this very high turnout.
And I must say that among young people aged 18-29, this turnout was almost 71%. And with a record turnout, the ruling party, Justice and Law, gained the lowest support in this age group, it was only about 15%. So it was a really big success, and I’m sure that we have made our small contribution to this.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
One thing that we talk about a lot at CIPE is that democracy is a lot more than just elections. And so how are you seeing the impact of these articles now that the election was over in 2023? Are you still getting views? How do you see this project continuing or what do you see as some of the more long-term implications?
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Well, I think that our project show that young people are open to wide participation in public discussion, in public life. Before some people were saying that young people do not matter who is governing, they are not very much interested in politics. But in my opinion, the project, like that one, show that it’s just contrary. If there is interesting topics, the topics which show the connection between, let’s say everyday situation, everyday life, future of the young people and their relation with the things they are thinking and they are discussing, they are very much involved and they start to be very much interested.
And that shows that maybe next step, if they realize that the policy is interesting thing, that they should participate in the public life. Next step from the side of the young people would be that they will start to join NGOs, maybe the other public organization and start to be interested in advocacy, in participating in policymaking. Not only during the election, but they will be open for the participation in the public discussion, in the advocating their position, also between the election. And they will be much more interested into joining NGOs or other organization which may have influence on the way the country is governed.
Anna Szczesniak:
I would add also that, between elections we can’t think and wait that somebody will do something for us, because we have to do what we can to defend democracy and to defend the rule of law in our country. Because I think that in our country was something like that, that a lot of people and young people weren’t interested in this backsliding of democracy and the rule of law in our country, quite a long time. And maybe too small number of people were on the street, I would say, and maybe we should do this all things earlier, not waiting eight years. So I think that it can be a lesson learned, also for other countries, not only for Poland, yes.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Yeah, absolutely. I know that a lot of our FEDN members right now are working on projects about engaging youth within the political system. So I guess the question would be, do you have any lessons or challenges that you face and overcame that you can share as others work on similar projects in other countries, other regions?
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Well, I think that it is very important to find a way how to show the young people that the policy is not something very abstractive, but it’s something very strongly related to their life. And our projects show that if you talk with the language of benefits and the relation between their situation and policy, they are much more interested in participating in this discussion.
So it is very critical to find a way how to attract young people and to explain them that public discussion, it’s also about them, about their life and about the way they will be functioning in the future, and also their well-being. If you find this way and you find the proper language to talk to young people, then you may have the success and you would realize that young people are not disinterested, but they are very interested in public discussion, in political issue. And that they will realize that any threats to democracy, any backsliding in democracy, it’s also threats to their life.
Anna Szczesniak:
And maybe I would like to add that, our small survey indicates that a lot of people, young people, about 90% in our survey, think that campaigns encouraging young people and every people to participate in the election is very well idea and it should be implemented, and this is very important. And also education on rule of law and democracy, why it is so important for our prosperity. So it was underlined within our survey, more emphasis on education about the rule of law. Because in our school system it is not so very well implemented. So we need more emphasis and more attention paid to this issue.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Well, in my opinion also if I add a little bit, is that young people can be very interested in short articles which present very briefly, “What is this discussion about?” and short articles written in their language. If you find the way to prepare this kind of information, they would be very much interested in the results.
And for me, I was really astonished that nearly 90% of the people who participated in our short survey stated that this is important matter. The rule of law is important matter. Before they thought that it’s something very abstractive, maybe not something which is worth of attention. But when you show this relation in a very short way, in very simple way, they realize that such a issue, maybe theoretical issue like the rule of law have a strong relation with their life and that tells when to participate in this discussion.
And also, it was also very interesting from our survey to realize that also nearly 90% of the people want to continue education. They want to have more information and more this kind of publication like we provided. So this is also the challenge for us because that could be our also topics for the next project, which we will make.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Speaking of the survey, were there any unexpected or particularly noteworthy responses that emerged?
Anna Szczesniak:
For me personally, I was surprised because we received 72 completed questionnaires. It’s pretty high number, I would say. We got also 10 comments, some of them were quite long, and so emotional comments, I would say. These comments show a lot of concern for future of our country and high level of awareness among these people who answered our questionnaire about the degree of divisions in our society.
Our society is very, very divided right now, and it’s getting worse, I would say. And some of our respondents are very, very aware about the role of politicians in our life, and about our political and also our private life, their influence on it. There was also an element of shame even for these politicians. So these young people are aware that our political class, I would say, political group, politicians maybe are not so fair that they should be. And this political culture is not so good, so proper right now. It should be much more better. And there was also an element of worrying, to wake up before it is too late. So for me it was something what surprised me.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Yeah, that’s definitely very interesting. What do you think is the cause of some of this division or worsening of the situation?
Anna Szczesniak:
I think we can’t say right now, because for me personally… I don’t know. I don’t want to say about it right now because this division is very, very deep and there are a lot of people which are very difficult to convey them that white is not white, and black is not black.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
I think we have some chances for the improvement of the situation because now we do not have public media in the hands of one political group. So maybe that will have some influence on the debate. But definitely we’ll see a little bit more after the next election because now in April we have the local election which also will show what is the division between the society in Poland. And in June we have election to European Parliament, which also will show how the division is going on in the Polish society.
But in my opinion, as Anna has said, it is very strong and it continues. But such a project when we explain something which is the position of democratic forces, I think it contributes to finding joint points between this divided group, and that’s also one of the importance of this.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Absolutely. I also wanted to touch on, Anna, what you said about shame being something that is expressed often in the comments. I know we talked about stressing the value of democracy and rule of law, but now that you’ve seen these results, are you thinking at all about how to address this shame or is that adjusting what you’re communicating at all?
Anna Szczesniak:
Oh, it’s very difficult because we thought that every barriers were crossed, I would say. But every day we can see the new information and we can hear new information about bad behavior of our politicians. So it’s very difficult to influence on it. And it is a theater of politicians, political theater. And I think that this political culture is going in the wrong way, even in our new parliament because we have a lot of showmen and people who would like to be celebrities. And maybe this is only my opinion, but it’s too small, too little interest of our national matters and problems, and more attention to their personal businesses, I would say, unfortunately. This is very sad.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
In my opinion, that the present situation is not very nice, as Anna has said. It’s a kind of political theater which is used by different people for their personal careers. But in my opinion, it may change when the main opposition, now opposition party, which was this populistic party piece, will fall apart. And there are very good chances that they will not stay together, they will divide to different groups. And maybe that will improve a little bit the political debate and the political culture as well, because now it’s really horrible. Too many people build their position on showing controversy, showing mistake, but not presenting the point of view, which could be useful for the development of-
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
Absolutely. Thank you so much. I wanted to touch on something that you mentioned actually, which was saying that it’s important to have short articles written in their language, so the language of the youth. Can you explain a little bit about what you mean by that? I think there’s often this sentiment that youth don’t like to read anymore and they’re not reading. So did you find that the articles were effective and can you explain how you think about that and also how you targeted them to be readable by youth?
Anna Szczesniak:
Well, we used different means. So I mean, short text, short messages and short animations, so we published it. And of course, full articles, which were published on the project webpage with links from main page of our Institute. But also we published information and promotional posts on Facebook, including paid posts on Facebook, which was very successful. But also on Instagram and TikTok, which is very, very popular and getting more popular in Poland, especially among young people.
We use also YouTube and previous Twitter, now X platform, and LinkedIn. The most popular were paid posts on Facebook and on the second place, TikTok. So it is very important, yeah. And language of benefits, as Mieczyslaw mentioned, so it is very important to adopt this language to the possibility of this young people and their preferences. So showing this link between their private life, their life with rule of law was crucial, I think. So showing specific person, young people who faced very, very difficult situation in their life because of the lack of the rule of law in our country.
Mieczyslaw Bak:
We have also internal discussion about the language. And in our staff we have some students or some young people who just completed their university education, and we also ask them what they think about the way these articles should be written. And we ask them also to provide some examples how they would like to see these articles and we use this instruction when we prepared for it.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
So one final question from me is, what is next for you, for IPED? What do you see going forward as some of your priorities after this decisive election last fall?
Mieczyslaw Bak:
Well, I think we would like to continue that issue, as I think comparing the size of the project we have quite a big success with these articles. We have a lot of positive comments about these articles. So I think that the continuation of the education of young people, especially maybe not only about importance of participating on the election, but also about the issue of advocacy, how they can influence the public debate between the election and how they can participate in this public debate. That would be definitely very interesting to have some kind of projects related or workshops, and maybe also small text dedicated to the participation of young people in public debate.
Tamari Dzotsenidze:
All right, well I think we’re pretty much at time. Thank you Anna and Mieczyslaw for taking time to share with us the impact that you were able to make through the FEDN Small Grants Project. For our listeners, you can learn more about the Free Enterprise & Democracy Network by going to our website at fedn.cipe.org, or on X, formerly known as Twitter, @FEDNglobal. Thank you.
Published Date: April 25, 2024